I been thinking about tough girls lately. I like to write tough girls. I saw Wanted last week and just now I watched Mr. and Mrs. Smith on FX and I saw Tomb Raider not too long ago, and it's got me thinking about old Angelina.
She's a terrific actress and she certainly does love playing that tough as nails broad with the perfect face, but I just wish she'd put some effort into her muscles. When you play an action hero as much as she does, she really should look the part. The things she is supposed to do are physically impossible for a woman with noodle arms and 85 lbs of bulk.
In Terminator 2 you get one glimpse of Linda Hamilton and you know she could get the ass of the average man. She's all muscle and sweat and aggression and if I met her in real life I'd give her whatever she wanted and get the hell out of her way.
But Angelina.... I could lift her over my head and throw her. There's no way in hell she could take on a man twice her size. I just don't buy it.
Bruce Lee was five foot nothin and could beat the crap out of any man he came across, but he was all muscle. I think a woman could certainly use her strengths and body position to fight off bigger guys, but any professional assassin would work out her arms on occasion.
She probably couldn't do five pushups. Seriously. She may be able to buy and sell me, but I could knock her out with one hit.
Think about it, if that was a dude with those flimsy little arms people would be all pissy about realism, but since she's a hot chick nobody pays attention.
I love Angelina Jolie. But I'd love her more if she had some visible biceps.
She's toned, and I think she could at least kick most women's asses, and some men's. Not mine, of course. She could probably take down Orlando Bloom just with a stare.
ReplyDeleteNo way. Look again at her body. She's thin but she ain't a fighter. She's not muscular at all.
ReplyDeleteShe makes a great fantasy woman, but in the real world she wouldn't last three minutes with a Layla Ali.
Isn't Layla pregnant. That would significantly hurt her chances.
ReplyDeleteAngelina is very pointy. She could poke an eye out with her elbows, shoulders, etc...
I won't back down from the fact that she could,and probably should, kick Orlando Bloom's worthless ass.
Gotta agree with Emily. Being an A-list actress, she likely doesn't want to beef up 10 pounds of arm muscle because it'd hurt her image. Or whatever.
ReplyDeleteShe was a joke in Tomb Raider as well. She plays out her "ooh, I'm pretty!" look a little too much for the roles she plays.
I don't even think she's that pretty, but that's besides the point. She's got to commit a little more. Look what Christian Bale has went through with all of his roles. Heck, even Will Smith, Mr. Popcorn, commits to his roles.
Then again, he doesn't really have to concentrate on acting out his characterizations. Lol. All he has to do is make that pouty face and he's golden for the one character he chooses to act. :P
Emily:
ReplyDeleteit's not the size of the dog, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
That said, I don't think she'd last a minute with you!
I'm going to disagree with your comment that if it were a man that scrawny people would be "pissy about realism". Time was, before Christian Bale saved us all, that there were people who thought Michael Keaton was the best Batman.
ReplyDeleteAs I said in '89 and have said at least once a year since: Batman needs to scare people in dark alleys. Michael Keaton? Great actor, funny guy. I could beat the crap out of him with one hand.
She'd have to up her caloric intake to build muscle. We're talking about a woman who didn't even gain weight when pregnant, for Chrissake. Speaking of which, shouldn't a woman with that many children be a little more buff as it is? Very odd.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, she's a wet noodle. But not attractive? Carlo... Personal preference only goes so far dude. That shit's pure animal instinct. :)
But I wouldn't definitely pay to watch her and Bloom throw down. That sounds more entertaining than Wanted.
Emily, have you ever written a good 'ol shoot 'em up?
I've written a couple of shoot 'em ups that weren't very good. But I'm sure I'll write a good one some day because they're like my favorite thing ever. Most of my scripts have some shoot 'em uppy elements.
ReplyDeleteMuscles are over-rated and actually mean zero in a fight. Nothing better than watching an average, doughy-looking boxer with technique take apart some stacked looking dude. Fernando Vargas, Stevie Johnston, Sultan Ibragimov, etc.
ReplyDeleteThey most certainly do NOT mean nothing. Boxers are matched by weight class, so technique will generally win the day. You're talking about two guys who are roughly the same size and both have a degree of strength, not unevenly matched men - one of whom is scrawny as hell.
ReplyDeleteI have technique, but in the end physical strength make a difference. There is no way I could hit hard without the strength to back it up.
A jerk,
ReplyDeleteNobody said that muscles are more important than technique. However, you cannot tell me that someone of Angelina Jolie's build would win in a fight versus any boxer, ufc fighter, or even actor-wrestler on the planet.
I don't think anybody, myself included, that has commented is an expert. Muscles are important, but so is conditioning, pure strength(not the same as muscles), endurance, fighting skill, desire, etc...
ReplyDeleteI haven't seen Wanted. Who is she taking on? Are they trained fighters, or just muscle? I honestly have no idea.
If Jolie is trained to fight, she can take out a bigger opponent that is what I like to call a "mirror athlete".
You can't tell me that some knucklehead with a small penis that spends four hours a day at the gym staring at his pecs can take down a somewhat smaller, but well trained, fighter. Jose Canseco is 6-4 245 pounds. Vai Sikahema is 5-9 205. Vai has muscle, but he's not as big as Canseco. And did you see that fight? It was a brutal beat down with Vai winning in the first round. Because he's trained.
I'll even sacrifice a bit of my own manhood to make my point. I'm not a huge guy, but I've got good sized arms and I'm in good shape. But I'm not a trained fighter. I've probably got two inches (in height) and twenty pounds on that female fighter and American Gladiator Gina Carano. And my arms are definitely larger and more defined than hers (I've given her picture a once over, or maybe more).
But you put us in a ring and she's gonna destroy me because she has technique coming out of her flawless ass.
But back to Jolie, the only way to settle this is a cage match between her and Emily. I'd buy a front row ticket to that fight.
Muscles are not the only requirement. Technique is also important, but there's no way someone with almost no muscles at all will be able to fight. Not to mention if you have any technique at all you naturally HAVE muscles. Training generates muscle tone.
ReplyDeleteYou can't pick up and carry around the kind of guns she does without muscles. It just makes no sense that someone of her supposed skill level would be so scrawny.
This is probably one of those agree to disagree issues.
ReplyDeleteNow, about that cage match...
Wouldn't be much of a match. I'd just pick her up and throw her.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that Angelina has no muscles or definition in WANTED. On the other hand, while she wasn't BIG, she did have muscle and definition in the original (2001) Tomb Raider; not so much in the second one.
ReplyDeleteBTW, size and strength are NOT the same, also if you get twice as strong, you hit twice as hard, but if you hit twice as fast, you hit four times harder.
Hugo, I know you know everything about everything, but all the time I've spent in a boxing ring has taught me that it takes strength, power and stamina to win a fight. You can beat someone bigger than you, but you can't beat someone bigger if you're a scrawny little nothing, not matter how much technique you have. You might know a few good throws, but that only gets you so far in a fight.
ReplyDeleteI've had to increase my weight lifting recently for this very reason.
I know the tiny little woman who can kick everybody's ass is a nice fantasy, but in reality, do you really think a professional assassin would be all skinny and frail? In Wanted, the lead bulked up. You see his muscles get bigger over his training montage. But Angelina is always a tiny birdlike creature. I just don't buy it.
Random comment -- no point really -- but most street fights aren't like sport fights or movie fights -- they're over in a few seconds.
ReplyDeleteThe first person to land a blow usually wins -- unless they are used to taking a blow -- in which case their counterstrike is the winning blow.
I feel 12 now.
Oh absolutely. But fights also tend to go to the ground quickly - one guy hits, then the other guy grabs, then they're both rolling around exhausted. That tends to give the advantage to the bigger guy.
ReplyDeleteIf you're smaller or a woman, you're going to want to stay on your feet as long as possible and tire the other guy out.
Oops! I guess I didn't mention the fact that you were right about WANTED. I thought she was way too out of shape to play the part.
ReplyDeleteEddie's right in regards to things in the ring vs. combat fights:
Combat fights are very short and brutal.
There aren't any rules in Combat fighting.
You try to break, maim, and kill your opponents quickly in combat fights.
If you go to the ground, you're probably already lost.
I'm not saying that strength or endurance won't give you an edge, but there are not necessarily indicative of winning outside of a ring.
Besides, sadly, she wasn't hired to be believable. She was probably hired to appeal to the Tomb Raider crowd. Most movies use certain stars just to get financing, not because they are best for the part.
She should've bulked up, though. At least a bit. She knows why she was hired, but she should've involved herself a little more in the role. Actors regularly exercise/lose wight/gain weight/etc and such for roles. Seems just lazy for Jolie to care more about her image than her roles.
ReplyDeleteHitting hard has nothing to do with muscles, though. Lifting weights will greatly increase strength and may slightly improve the ability to punch, but not by much. A bodybuilder in no way hits harder than a scrawny guy, if that guy hits hard naturally. Meaning AJ's lack of bulk/muscle reveals nothing about how much ass she can kick. Floyd Mayweather or even a non-muscled pot-bellied Chuck Liddell would knock out Shaq/Lou Ferrigno/Mr. Universe, etc. People either hit hard or they don't, and technique helps that, but lift all day long you won't get more hit power.
ReplyDeleteCarlo- No, she couldn't but Gina Carano/Lucia Ryker could totally beat up men twice their size who were not skilled, aka henchman in movies.
Um, if anyone's still discussing this...
Again, nobody is saying Joe Sixpack is the greatest fighter ever. As Emily said, being a fit fighter means you've been doing training, thus have technique. We don't care about how steroid bimbos fight, A Jerk. That's not what we've been talking about at all.
ReplyDeleteCarlo- Yes, and I'm saying technique and training don't necessarily manifest themselves in big muscles. You could absolutely have both, be able to kick ass, and still look like Jolie.
ReplyDeleteUm, what steroid bimbos? The one-time best female boxer on earth and current top 5 female mma fighter? Calling them bimbos seems fair to you?
a jerk, you keep naming professional fighters as your examples. Not one of those fighters is shaped like Jolie. Name me one fighter who looks like her and hits like Liddell.
ReplyDeleteA Jerk, if that is your real name, you kept saying things like "Nothing better than watching an average, doughy-looking boxer with technique take apart some stacked looking dude." How are you NOT discussing steroid bimbos? These were the people I was talking about. I never said anything about female wrestlers or some other crap, I was talking about people who work out purely for appearance and I made that very clear.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the 'doughy boxer' you refer to has tons of muscle. You think a 250 pound male that looks chunky and chubby has little muscle? Think again. They are called "bears" and "tanks" for a reason. They work out whenever they walk to the bathroom, for fuck's sake. If you weight 150 pounds, strap 100 pounds of weights to yourself and have the workout they have naturally without even going to the gym.
Being heavy adds weight to punches, even if you aren't buff looking with chiseled arms, due to the amount of muscle you've built up over time and, of course, how heavy your arm is compared to most people.
And Emily is right, none of the fighters you use as examples are toothpicks without any muscle.
And fighters NEED muscle. If I go on the ring with a ton of technique but no muscle, there's no way in hell I'd win. What will I do with all my technique? How will I manage to bruise someone if their abs act like a bulletproof vest to my punches, and their strong neck and shoulders causes punches to their head to have little effect? Unless I'm allowed to poke their eyes or kick their balls, I'm as good as a knife in a gunfight.
Joe Lauzon, Aleks Emilanenko, Panchito Bojado... I'm not saying they EXACTLY resemble her, rather that they are examples of skill and technique and natural power beating bulk and/or definition. They've routinely beaten men MUCH bigger than they are. Muscles don't equal strength, they equal showiness. That's why bodybuilders can't fight.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying your argument for why she couldn't kick ass is incorrect, not that there are pro-fighters who would choose to look like her and enter the ring. I get that they have more muscles than her but they often have no way near as much muscle as their opponents... and it doesn't matter. So that being the case, yes, I buy her beating up average to large sized actors who are not written as her fighting equal.
You're really never seen a skinny dude knock out a jacked up guy before? Go to the Wild Card any day this week...
I think you're missing my point. I fully believe people can beat up bigger opponents if they're well trained. Why do you think I take boxing? I'm not training to take out women smaller than me, I'm training to defend myself against bigger men.
ReplyDeleteBut Angelina is not in a fighter's shape at all. She has no muscle definition, she has very little physical strength. I don't believe her as someone who can take out a bigger opponent because her body looks weak and frail.
Gotta love a bunch of writers arguing the finer points of a brawl. I bet we could raise enough money to shoot an indie feature by organizing fights between struggling writers....
ReplyDeleteCompletely unrelated, Emily, have you ever seen Hard Boiled?
Very very very long ago. One of my good friends in high school was a big Woo fan and he made us watch a lot of kung fu movies.
ReplyDeleteIf you're looking to defend yourself, you should learn how to break a knee, throat-punch, Sp-out, rupture a testicle, ear-block, tear out an eye, and head-butt. Learn how to NOT telegraph your moves(harder than it sounds).
ReplyDeleteKnees are the best option if your opponent isn't carrying a weapon, once a knee is blown out, you can walk away, he won't be following you.
More importantly, being aware of your surroundings at all times. Oh, and having keys, or a pen or pencil at hand is useful.
Flexibility, speed, balance, and endurance stength is very important if you don't want ALOT of muscle. OTOH, look at circus performers, the women aren't huge, but they have ALOT of strength(Spanish Web, Flying Silk, Chinese Poles, or Flying Trapeze). Also gymnasts fall into that category. Again, toned not big.
Angie certainly should have toned up, her body was a real disappointment in WANTED.
I occasionally catch Dancing with the stars or Celebrity Circus and you get models and actresses whining about how they thought they were in good shape but that this was hard.
Also, it depends on what TYPE of fighting you're doing as to which muscles you focus on. Bigger muscles do one thing that compact muscle does not; it absorbs hits.
None of this applies to Angie in WANTED. She was just plain out-of-shape.
Fair enough... Guess I just put her into the stringy, scrappy muscles category rather than the typical too-skinny actress category.
ReplyDelete